This is one of my favourite piece of music played on PiPa 琵琶。

What's the phrase Brendan uses at the end of lesson when Echo thanks him. It sounds like bang3 xie4 but I can't quite figure it out.

没错！

这个是非常地道的北京话。用法和“不用”一样。

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com

Orbital, there is almost universal rule in Chinese that one fourth tone does not precede another fourth tone. Bu is a good example. BU not preceding a fourth tone is always fourth tone. But when it preceds a fourth tone, it becomes a second tone. As an example: 不 明白。 不卖 , the first bu keeps its fourth tone but the second bu becomes the second tone.

yeah. 不 and 一 are the ones with crazy tone sandhi. they're manageable, although i still find myself getting confused by the rules for stringing multiple third tones together. in the end, i figure that if people understand you you can't be doing it all wrong.

Here is another discussion of the 4 th tone after 4 th tone topic, again confirming my point.

http://web.mit.edu/~jinzhang/www/pinyin/tones/index.html#44

Pradhanarvind,

The links you pointed to define 5 as the highest pitch and 1 as the lowest, therefore 5-3 would be like half of a full fourth tone, not a second tone as I think you are suggesting. Agree with you on the tone change for bu though.

@orbital,

same here. 不 is a special case. We pronounce bù as bú，when it is before another 4th-tone word, like 不用（búyòng）, 不去（búqù）, 不对（búduì）, 不错（búcuò）, 不在（búzài）.

In the other four-four words, the first character should be pronounced as fourth tone, like 兴趣(xìngqù)，作业(zuòyè)，睡觉(shuìjiào)，过去(guòqù)，个性(gèxìng)，etc.

and "You can change the emphasis without changing the actual tone." Sometimes it's on the first one. Sometimes it's on the second.

@pradhanarvind - I don't think anyone is arguing that there aren't differences in the way people inflect natural speech. If all pitch changes were identical text-to-speech software would sound a lot better.

That said, this is probably a more sophisticated community than you imagine. I live and work in China myself, and as far as I can see the only reason you're getting pushback is your claim that when any two fourth tones are put together the first tone is pronounced in the second tone. This is unambiguously wrong. Gail has provided some pretty clear examples above, to which I'd add the sentence 我太累了。 Pronouncing 太 in the second tone is simply wrong. I don't want to speak like that, which is actually one of the reasons I come here.

So I'm guessing you're just exaggerating your point of view because this is an online discussion. and you made a generalization you didn't really mean to make. That's fine. Everyone does it. But you don't need to defend it. Because I don't really think you honestly believe that "for most Chinese tones are a BS". I mean... I just don't see how anyone who is genuinely bilingual could possibly say that.

it sames, the 4-tone Chinese is not much easier than the 5-tone Thai. :-)

Hey, I have a question about the word 'gen' you use. You are using 跟, right? I'm just a little confused over pronunciation, as I was taught to say it with a hard 'g' as in 'egg' and you seem to be saying it like the english word 'gem'.

I also noticed the same sort of thing with the words '那' and '这' in another recording.

I assume it's an accent thing but I wouldn't mind someone explaining it to me, just to stop me doubting everything I've ever learned!

thanks

Matt

Henan Storytime-

I was scolded yesterday while riding the city bus by the bus driver and bus patron. The offense I had committed occurred while I was trying to catch up with my bus that was leaving me behind(apparently the driver didn't see me running). After yelling and waving my hands didn't work I kicked the side of the bus as it was picking up speed and about to pass me by. Those 散打 lessons where starting to pay off I thought.

The kick got the drivers attention and he immediately stopped the bus. I entered the bus and the driver was scowling at my while holding a big "THUMBS UP". Talk about juxtaposition.

I was quite confused about the mixed hand gesture and facial expression and thought he wanted to compliment me on my fast running and kicking abilities.

Shortly after getting on the bus and multiple looks over the shoulder by the bus driver at me, he found a semi coherent English speaker on the bus to teach me a lesson in manners. The look of disgust and anger on both driver and patrons face was as if I had just stolen candy from a baby, and then punched the baby in the face. I felt like I was being interrogated by the secret police after having defaced a Mao Portrait.

Apparently my act was "shameful" and I owed the driver an apology. "Why did you kick the bus?" she said, her questions and comments saturated with contempt and anger.

I'm not too familiar with Chinese law, so I didn't know if bus kicking is a capital offense or not. Either way I didn't feel like getting a lecture at the moment, and also felt like I hadn't done anything that bad.

Unfortunately my language ability was not up to par and I think I lost the verbal battle.

However the "真对不起" is what the bus driver was looking for in my apology.What I want/need to know for my next encounter is how to say- "I'm really sincerely not sorry"

I exited the bus even after the Bus driver tried to detain me by not opening the bus doors. Haha sucker bus driver, other passengers have to get off at this stop too.

So after a sarcastic apology to the bus driver and a shifty eye to the self righteous lady patron I made my escape. ”再见司机！慢走啊！I said with an air of defiance.

Can't tell me I can't kick a bus in China!

@imron

ah, thankyou. I realised they weren't using 跟when I woke up this morning and remembered that 跟 means someothing completely differnt

Whoops, that's a silly mistake.

However, I'd still like some clarification on the 这 and 那 thing that I mentioned. (I think it's in the in point and eat lesson)

Echo and Brendan pronounce the e in 这 and 那 with an 'ay' sound. I've been taught to say it in a different way. Is this just because my teacher has a different accent or is this going to confuse me immensely as I travel through China?

@matt,@Echo,

yes, Echo is right. usually if we put 这and 那together with a measure word, we would prounce them as zhei,nei, and also, but it is also right to pronounce them as zhe, na. To some of the foreign students, they don't know zhei,nei, for a long time. because it is kind of difficult to learn the rules. but if you come to China, Beijing especially, you will hear more zhei,nei than zhe,na.

Gail@popupchinese.com

@Nadasax and anyone else offended by my bus antics.

I feel I should defend myself from being labeled a "young-ex-pat-away-living-in-another-country-for-the-first-time-there's-no-rules-that-apply-to-me-here-I'm-a-foreigner-so-I-can-get-away-with-anything/everything" kind of person.

We can all agree that life in the majority of China is not easy, rarely fair, and often hazardous. Not being fluent in the language is also a large hurdle to overcome in everyday life. But that is no excuse to treat people poorly.

Living in my environment has made me tougher, stronger, and more confident to handle life's daily challenges. Including run away buses. I have to be flexible in certain situations, and adaptive.

The reason China has made me stronger and tougher is because it has broken me down. Humiliated me beyond belief. It has served me a large dose of humility on a daily 3 course meal schedule. I am constantly rebuilding myself with new lessons learned.

But for you Nadasax to make the accusation that I live my entire life, my entire experience in every moment, in every situation as a "self-centered jerk" is factually false and discredits your claim of living "in 5 continentes in close to 30 countries..." Because with all of your knowledge of living in different cultures and languages you should know that your assumptions of people, places, and events are usually inaccurate.

If I have learned anything from living in China, it is that my first impressions on almost everything, are almost entirely wrong.

That is why I experience things first hand, to know for myself. The bus kicking was a first hand experience, and I will say my first time kicking a bus. Hopefully it will be my last time kicking a bus, but you will believe me when I say I will think twice before kicking another bus.

So instead of alienating me by calling me names, why not give me advice on your experiences? Open up a dialogue by giving me suggestions on how I could have handled the situation differently?

Don't close off that dialogue. Don't unfairly tag me with negative prejudices from previous experiences as a stereo type.

No hard feelings

-Anthony

@nadasax - I think one of the strengths of our community here is that we have a lot of people living in China. Which tends to strip away stereotypes pretty quickly.

To be honest, I probably would have kicked the bus too. Then again, I got in a passive aggressive feud with a local restaurant the other day over a missing 12 kuai potato dish. China has a way of turning bad days into malestroms of discontent. Damn you and your poor potato delivery service Mr. Man.

Gracias a popupchinese, me encanta el idioma chino.

What does exactly 真好 mean?

Hiya,

why de in mei guan xi, but not in duibuqi?

真对不起！

zhēn duìbuqǐ ！

真的没关系！

zhēnde méiguānxi ！

TIA

Walid

@gms_alpha2 It's not in the transcript, but it does sound like they're adding a 啊 sound at the end. It is, AFAIK, just a way to make the sentence sound better/softer. I think it's partly hinted at in this lesson:

http://popupchinese.com/lessons/absolute-beginners/an-unholy-smell

(Which, by the way, is hilarous.)

Don't take my word for granted, though, I'm a total newbie at Chinese :)

@gms_alpha2 & giullina & longmarch88,

Hi guys, very good discussion!

gms_alpha2, in this lesson, there is no 啊／呀／啦 in the dialogue. It probably sounds like it has because all the sentences end with "i" (qi3...xi5...).

giullina, yes, words like 啊／呀／啦 can soften a sentence and can also emphasize the intonation of a sentence.

longmarch88, it doesn't have to be 4 syllables. If a word like 啊／呀／啦 is needed depends on the context/intonation.

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com

@gms_alpha2,

It's more common for southerners to add 呀 all things being equal, but you'll still hear it up north to communicate certain kinds of emotion so I guess whether it's an accent or a style depends on how heavily someone uses it. In this context it didn't set off any alarms on our side.

To follow up on longmarch88's point, Chinese people tend to add these emotional tones at the end of statements or questions. So you wouldn't use 呀 at the end of a standalone word like 星期 unless it was the answer to a question (which is why 下星期呀 works). If someone asked you, "what are those things that make up a month and there are four of them?" You could answer 星期呀 and that would sound native to my ears. Perhaps better than the alternative, since it would add a sense of incredulity that someone has forgotten the word for "week".

@ Xiao Hu

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head:to sound like a native you need the emotional undertones of the language. This is something 泡泡中文 does the best,no doubt about it.

@echo

Thats for the explanation.What I was getting at was that the rhythm of chinese can decide the structure of sentences. It makes intuitive sense to me.

Here is what the grammar book says:

" Prosodic features, and particularly those relating to rhythm, are essential elements in Chinese syntax. Sentences that do not observe prosodic principles are often regarded not only as stylistically implausible but also as syntactically unacceptable. Consider the following:

他很喜欢浏览书*ta hen xihuan liulan shu

He very much likes browsing through books.

The sentence does not infringe any lexical, collocational or grammatical rules, but it is not acceptable because it is out of line with prosodic needs. It can be improved with the following small amendment:

他很喜欢浏览书籍° ta h£n xihuan liulan shuji

He very much likes browsing through books.

Here the addition of a syllable to the noun object, changing the monosyllabic 书 shu into the disyllabic 书籍 shuji 'books', ensures rhythmic balance and makes the sentence easy on the Chinese ear. Clearly rhythm, like grammar and collocation, plays a vital role in Chinese syntax.

In the following sections, we will first analyse the basic rhythmic structure of the Chinese language and then look more closely at the interplay between this basic rhythm and syntactic sequences."

The book then gives 20 pages or so of not too easy to understand examples. Like I said, it makes sense and seems to fit with what I see and hear,although, I must admit to not fully understanding how it works at all.