"Going Dutch" means "not showing women the due respect", whereas "picking up the tap" is "trying harder"? I didn't know women's respect is that cheap. Talk about gender stereotype!

And Alice Liu just sat there kept her mouth shut? Was she not a guest on a previous episode about feminism and gender equality?

wgj: I have no idea what you're talking of -- can you clarify?

Here are some links to what I discussed:

Claire Messud on likeable female characters

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2013/05/would-you-want-to-be-friends-with-humbert-humbert-a-forum-on-likeability.html

Rebecca Solnit and "mansplaining"

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175584/

Recommendation: Following Gray Tan (谭光磊) of Grayhawk Agency on Facebook for an insight on getting Chinese books into translation.

--Alice

wgj: I feel like I've been having this conversation with disgruntled commenters my entire life. Again proving the theory that every time someone says "I wonder if I am in fact prejudiced against feminism, stuff like this happens and remind me that feminism totally deserves most of the prejudice it gets" another would-be feminist would shut up rather than speak up. Karen Ma was talking within the context of her writing, which is, now bear with me, FICTION (as you yourself point out: "in which she describes a fictional discussion from her book").

Also, I believe the right phrase is "pick up the tab," not, as you would have it, "pick up the tap."

@alicexinliu: Your excuse for Ms. Ma's comments is simply ludicrous. Yes, her writing is (semi-)fictional, but her *elaboration* of said writing wasn't fictional at all. It's utterly obvious that the phrase "not really showing the women the due respect" was not a quote out of the dialogue between the two women in the book, which Ms. Ma personally disagree with, but indeed Ms. Ma's own judgement of the men's outrageous behavior (fictional or real - doesn't really matter) of not picking up the tab (yes, you're right about my misspelling).

On "having this conversation with disgruntled commenters my entire life", I would say that this is probably not going to change as long as mainstream feminism (which both you and Ms. Ma seem to be representing, judging by the conversation in this episode) remains the way it is - illogical, inconsequent and in deep contradiction to the principle of inequality.

English Teachers of the less than stellar variety (Butt-hurt ones in the comments) - snap

Simple minded attacks on the views of women (the butt-hurt English teachers above)- snap.

Mansplaining from Jeremy - snap (although, probably necessary at the precise moment I have in mind, so not strictly mansplaining)

These 'pleasing' enactments of podcast content, aside, a little push-back is deserved. It seemed more of a class circle-jerk than anything else. First, some banal observations about western men/asian female relationships, mostly sourced from Japan 20 - 30 years ago. Yet, we were assured, were 'China now!'. Then some stories about tactical maneuvering for class status in first Japan, then the US, then India, then finally back to China. Where, it's all about the North, we can surmise, by the lady's attempt to pass herself off as from Dongbei. I did like the fact that poise and grace finally arrived in the guise of 'I'm overseas Chinese'. And yes, I did like it. It felt like the first moment of openness and possibility in the podcast; That we might all be 'overseas Chinese' and recede (or emerge) into indeterminancy and the promise of something better and more glamorous.

From there we moved to a happy totalising of the US and England as both, you know, 'Western', balanced nicely by the totalising of Japan and China as both 'Asian'. The result, though, was worth it, giving us a nuanced and insightful discussion about the encounter of time, place and floating identities that illuminated both the specifics under discussion and we the listeners. (I fear my sarcasm might be a little too dry here)

I could go on, but 'nuff said. Jeremy and Alice, you are smart people. And Karen Ma has written a book so she's got to be a smarty, too, yeah? I haven't read her book, but there's got to be a much more interesting person than emerged in this podcast. Really, if all you can offer us is upper-middle class identity/status politics then, to channel Jeremy for a moment, fuck you. I don't mind the aspirational, I'd be lying if I said I don't have a dollop or two myself, but I expect a more open, inclusive and deft set of views than was on offer today. Suffocatingly un-self-aware and self-absorbed would be my take-way.

Ok, part the 2. I wrote the above before I'd heard the entire podcast. Went back and heard some interesting discussion about India and China. Karen Ma providing some genuine and non-trite thoughts about specific differences between Beijing and Delhi. But again, the suffocating assumptions, with the comment made that the Indian writers all go off to Cambridge - or crucial correction from Alice Liu - to one of the top universities in India. Really Alice, that's the nature and joy of the Indian literary scene?

All said in love, Sinica, as a long time listener (and serial critic, admittedly). Perhaps I'm pining for a Sinica that isn't?

I always thought the Yellow Emperor was so named because he too had "yellow fever." Could be wrong though as I specialize in the late Ch'ing period. And, yes, I'm so old I still use Wade-Giles or Yale romanization.