Most businesses avoid driving their customers to tears. At Popup Chinese we've "gone native" enough to believe you should put down that fork and wipe them off your face. Fluency isn't easy punk, and its especially tough when the clock is ticking and you've only got 50 seconds for each of these questions.

You heard us right. If today's quiz takes you more than 12 minutes and 30 seconds, you've fallen behind and won't be able to complete the entire test. Ace it though, and you just went elite: the world is your oyster.
 said on
September 21, 2008
These were harder. 9/15, mostly thanks to not having a strong enough grasp on the differences between close synonyms. Keep these coming, I need them if I'm going to take the HSK advanced next year.
 said on
September 21, 2008
Haha. 6/15 with lots of time and some answers actually close to guessing.

For calibration purposes I gave this to my (native speaker) wife who got out with a whopping 12/15.
 said on
September 21, 2008
@johnb&henning,

很高兴你们二位都喜欢我们的高级题:)

高级HSK的难点在于考点已经不再集中到你是否了解这门语言,更多的是考查你能不能真正熟练地掌握这门语言,所以题量大、时间短,而且就像henning说的情况,中国人也会错,因为虽然绝大多数中国人都能讲一口流利的中文,但是能准确熟练地理解或者应用正式文体(例如新闻、文学作品)的人并不是大多数,就像作家、记者、编辑、中文教师等职业工作者,都是需要经过数年的专业培训和积累才能达到一定的语言功力的。如果留心,你会发现,有很多人在日常生活中使用母语时其实经常出现错误,一些可能会产生歧义的成语连电台播音时也会出错。高级HSK题有一些是“没有错误的选项,只有最好的选项”,所以汉语学习者到达高级阶段以后学习的重点也就自然地转移到了如何掌握一门“漂亮”的语言上来,不只是“说一口流利的”普通话,更是掌握“让中国人都羡慕的”中文,才是高阶段学习者的目标。

不知道johnb和henning你们都错了哪些题?觉得这次的题有什么难点?不妨和大家分享一下?

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com
 said on
September 21, 2008
I got 13/15 (though it probably took me twice as long as the allotted time), missing out on questions 10 and 11. Question 10 because I'd not seen the word 塑造 before and so wasn't sure if it was or wasn't appropriate. Question 11 because I wasn't sure if 障碍 could go with 睡眠, and also because I wasn't sure 睡梦 referred to just sleeping, or actual dreaming, and people spending 1/3 of their life dreaming seemed a bit too long.

I think these questions would have been significantly harder if the answers weren't grouped. Sometimes it was easy to pick the correct answer just from one of the items in the group.
 said on
September 22, 2008
@imron,

13/15? Well done!:)

Actually 塑造 emphasizes using words or art describe a person or a thing. We usually say 塑造(什么样的)形象。

On Question 11, you can fill either 睡眠 or 睡梦. They both mean sleeping. 睡眠 is more formal though. You'll see 睡梦 combining with 中 in many writing works, esp. in literary works.例如:我从睡梦中醒来,发现他站在我的床前。

Here are some combination examples of 障碍. 睡眠障碍;心理障碍;生理障碍;听力障碍;语言障碍.
 said on
September 22, 2008
@johnb - you're already a shoo-in for the foreign service. On the synonym front, I got #15 wrong myself - discounted the correct answer from the feeling 暗暗 was too negative to use with 加油. Apparently it can be used to express hidden but positive feelings, although 偷偷 can't. Live and learn!

@henning - I think we'll start a countdown for the point when you actually surpass your wife.... :)

 said on
September 22, 2008
13/15, with 4 and 14 wrong. (Those lucky number 4's, I guess.) In retrospect my choice for 14 was probably a dumb one, though 必须要 for the second answer seems redundant to me. (I've heard it in speech, but still.)

For 4, I'm guessing that it's the answer for the third blank that really makes the difference there - 心态 versus 心情? Do 无一幸免 and 一向 sound OK for the first two?
 said on
September 22, 2008
@Brendan -- 13/15??? "Would you like a fork?"

(just kidding)
 said on
September 22, 2008
For 4, I'm guessing that it's the answer for the third blank that really makes the difference there - 心态
That's definitely what triggered it for me. I wasn't too familiar with 在所难免 or 一味, but was fairly certain that the third blank should be 心态.

 said on
September 22, 2008
Nasty.. I'll have to re-visit this quiz in 2010 or so and hope to be able to pass it by then.
 said on
September 22, 2008
Echo,

feedback from my side does not make much sense at this level - too much noise from unknown vocab. But I will be happy to share my upcoming Elementary & Intermediate adventures.

travelyan,

now that will be a long countdown considering that she knows tose 300 Tang poems by heart, won some Chengyu competition in High School, read HongLouMeng the first time in Elementry school, etc. etc. Those errors are much rather a consequence of >15 years in Germany...
 said on
September 22, 2008
6/15 after 3 years of daily study. Providing good instruction is something non-Chinese should find profitable. The reason is competition. Education is a service. Chinese themselves cannot provide service (they DO drive customers to tears). My rate of learning went up dramatically when I quit NTNU in Taiwan to study on my own. I would pay good money for user-friendly materials and service that can make me fluent. All I have is one blue HSK grammar book I bought in Beijing. Are there HSK materials as abundant as the TOEFL etc materials?
 said on
September 22, 2008
@strongenglish - maybe not tears, but a short stint at Tsinghua actually *did* lead me to drive my fist into a concrete wall at one point. Nice campus, but the helpful advice I got from an instructor was being told "they're just wrong" after asking how I was getting a particular tone wrong and how to fix it.

On the HSK front, the size of the learning communities are quite different (chinese learners are obviously a fraction of a fraction of English learners), but the HSK is the leading standardized test for mandarin in the mainland at this point, and is required for university admission as well as increasingly by conglomerates operating in the mainland. AP just launched a competing test earlier this year in the States, though, so things could change. There's a lot of bureaucratic infighting over the administration of the test between its government sponsors and that tends to stand in the way of things getting done effectively. Right now two different organizations are technically tasked with administering the HSK for Chinese and non-Chinese native speakers respectively and tend to battle it out over who has the authority to do specific things with the test.

@henning - don't let your wife pull the wool over your eyes with her emotional claims! We are talking about established and unbiased methods for measuring fluency! At the very least, when this fateful day does come, you should enroll her in one of our remedial courses! ;)

 said on
September 22, 2008
@henning, I'd be more interested to see which ones your wife got wrong. It'd be interesting to see how much leeway there is between an answer acceptable to a native speaker, compared to the ideal answer.
 said on
September 22, 2008
@travelyan -- The shame, the shame! Will go 挖个洞 and crawl inside now.

@imron -- Yeah, I think 心态 probably makes that answer. Oh well -- that's what I get for not looking more closely. And yes, I would be interested to hear which ones henning's wife got wrong too. May see if I can talk Li into taking this for comparative purposes: she's extremely well-read, but hates using official-speak, so I think she might actually get a couple of these wrong.
 said on
September 22, 2008
Hi guys,

unfortunatelly she closed that window really fast so no chance for an in-depth analysis ;)

But I convinced my collegue (native speaker also) to try this out and he got 15/15. He considered # 7-10 really tough, though.
 said on
September 22, 2008
5/15 - almost close to statistical guesswork. It makes me feel much better to know native speakers find this challenging too.

 said on
September 22, 2008
@Brendan,

呃...

You can't use 无一幸免 and 一向 in #4, since they both have to be used in past tense, or at least, we would know that things have already happened.

昨天从日内瓦飞往东京的航班发生事故,机上乘客及机组人员无一幸免。

他一向是个沉默寡言的孩子,那场事故发生后,他仿佛完全封闭了自己。

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com

 said on
September 22, 2008
@imron,

It would be easier and clearer if you try to remember 在所难免 and 无一幸免 together. As what i replied to Brendan, 无一幸免 have to be used in past tense, so it's more like something bad has already happened. 在所难免 more emphasize something is inevasible, and tense here doesn't really matter.

Same way works on 一味 and 一向 (I mean you can try to remember them together). "一味"暗示了我们这个句子中“一味”后面的动词是不好的,是一种不好的行为,是作者觉得不对的。一向是指某些情况一直是这样。

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com
 said on
September 22, 2008
@henning,

你要加油阿,不要放弃HSK高级,有挑战才有进步嘛!:)

我对你的中文学习非常有信心,就像我相信所有来popup努力学习中文的朋友们都能在汉语学习的道路上有不小的收获一样。

--Echo

echo@popupchinese.com
 said on
September 23, 2008
回声老师,

谢谢你的鼓励。还好我是为了乐趣而学系的, 不是为了工作。 是我的爱好而已。 之所以我肯定不会放弃。 :)
 said on
October 3, 2008
7/15, in a little over 12.5 minutes. Found I was making educated guesses and skipping over the sentences without blanks to save time. Some suggestions for the system:

(1) Keep track of each time you take a test, including what answers were right or wrong, and how long it took to answer.

(2) After (1) is in place add a notes field on the answers page so you can note down any comments (e.g. "guessed half of it", "come back and try again in a month", "much easier than last time", "my Chinese wife did this for me that's why my marks so high this time"). You could even do this per question, but that might be a bit much.

(3) Have list of people who've done the test and their marks, wrong answers and notes.

(4) Put a timer on the question page (maybe synchronise the scrolling to whatever question you're on)

(5) Make the blanks a little clearer and easy to find in the long questions.

(6) Have popups in the comments.

(7) Include explanations and other examples (like Echo has in these comments), but in the answers page.

(8) When (7) is done, remember to include the questions you got right on the answers as well... that way you can review the ones you guessed.

Would be good to have the option to get updates to a thread I've commented on emailed to me, don't know if this happens?

Good luck :P
 said on
October 3, 2008
great suggestions sprungturnip - we're expecting to remain in beta for the next week or so, and will try to get a lot of these small improvements taken care of. Challenge is adding features without adding too much complexity. :)
 said on
January 14, 2009
Holy crap that was rough! 17:08 with only 7 out of 15 correct. Major bitch slap administered to my Chinese (and my previously over-inflated confidence in my Chinese ability! haha) I now realize how horrible my understanding of written grammar is. This was the incentive I needed to get studying harder again. Thanks!

Mark Lesson Studied